Shadenfreude

[la_rainette]

I was going to post this as a reply to a commend by lilian_cho in copperbadge's LJ, and then I thought that we had spammed Sam's place enough as is and it was a bit long anyways, so here goes.

We were talking about words that have no exact word-for-word translation from one language into another, and it reminded me of a conversation I had a long time ago with a Germanist friend of mine in Birmingham, England (just to make things more confusing :D ). We had been wondering to what extent necessity defines language, and how being brought up in a certain language, with its semantic limitations, may influence your perception of the outside world, and one example that he brought up was Schadenfreude. Hias point was that just because the word didn't have an English translation, it didn't mean that English-speaking people were immune from the feeling.

I laughed and wholeheartedly agreed. But then, just yesterday, when lilian_cho asked, well, how do you say it in French then, I realized that we don't. We just don't.

And that may be very telling in itself. The feeling certainly exist, I am no angel and I am sure I experienced it before I even knew it had a name; it is rooted deeply enough in human nature.

But my feeling is, the French in general, culturally, have a very limited sense of self-criticism. So they don't bother acknowledging this kind of feeling, or if they do, they do not want anyone to rub it in. So they don't have a name for it, especially not a very derogatory name such as Schadenfreude. It doesn't mean that they don't know the feeling.

But it is a pretty effective way not to feel guilty about it.

Comments

[garney.livejournal.com]

You have me very curious as to what this general feeling entails >3

[la-rainette.livejournal.com]

:D It means pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others. Don't tell me you're totally immune and have never felt it (else I will feel terribly lonely out there).

[garney.livejournal.com]

Ooh no, I've felt that, oh yes yes. *is malicious*

[la-rainette.livejournal.com]

ahahahaha. *feels a lot less lonely*

[lilian-cho.livejournal.com]

>>>>>we had spammed Sam's place enough as is

*grin sheepishly* Poor Sam.

>>>>>well, how do you say it in French then, I realized that we don't. We just don't.

Not even a saying or a proverb?

I do think that language shows a lot about a culture's values and beliefs.

In Mandarin, there's no word for "Good Bye." It's "Jai Jian" instead--"until we meet again." Only recently do they have "Bai Bai"--a Mandarinization of "Bye Bye." Maybe the Chinese believe that everyone will eventually meet again, what with reincarnation and everything.

Below is a long illustration of just how anal how seriously the Chinese treat family relations:

English-speakers, who apparently don't care that much about familial relationships, lump just about every relative under the term "cousin."

On the other hand, cousin specifically means the children of one's aunts and uncles. There's _eight_ different Mandarin words for cousins: older male cousin with the same surname, older female cousin with the same surname, younger male cousin with the same surname, younger female cousin with the same surname, older male cousin with a different surname, older female cousin with a different surname, younger male cousin with a different surname, and *take deep breath* younger female cousin with a different surname.

The Chinese are also very specific about birth order: parents refer to their children as "Old One," "Old Two," "Old Three," and so on (I'm "Old Three"). I call my older brothers "Big Brother" and "Second Brother." I can also call my uncles and aunts as "Seventh Aunt" etc., but considering that I have 16 uncles and aunts, it's easier to call them "Paternal/Maternal Uncle/Aunt (insert name here)".

In family gatherings, whenever my Mom introduces me to someone, she has to first draw up an extended family tree in her head to determine by what title I should call the person. If she's wrong, there'll be a brief argument as to whether I should call the person "Maternal Grand-uncle" or "Paternal Grand-uncle" etc. etc. etc.

Even though the Japanese is very specific regarding male/female speech, superior/peer/inferior speech (unlike the Chinese), they don't have the convoluted relative designation that the Chinese have. They have "aunt" and "uncle" instead of eight words for them.

I have yet to know of any other language which is more anal specific regarding family relations than Mandarin.

eight words for cousins, eight words for aunts and uncles

[lilian-cho.livejournal.com]

But of course, with China's one-child policy, soon the Mainland Chinese will lose the concept of "oldest child," "second child," ... "brother," "sister," "cousin," "aunt," and "uncle."

Which is a shame, really.

Grandparents may also stop referring to their grandchildren as "Inner grandson/daughter" and "Outer grandson/daughter." ("Inner" if the grandchild share the same surname, "Outer" if he/she doesn't.)

Each pair of grandparents will soon have only one grandchild to heap all their attention to. *sigh* Seems rather lonely...but I suppose we have to consider the world population and all that.

[la-rainette.livejournal.com]

Sam's OK with it, I think. I once compared his LJ to a comfortable café where we would all come and chat around a cup of tea and muffins and, you know, discuss the interesting topics provided to us by our Kind Host, and he did seem OK with that. It's just that that particular thread was threatening to get out of control. :D

Not even a saying or a proverb?

Nope. We ignore it altogether.

Thanks for your explanation on family relations in China, BTW, that was really interesting and detailed. I had no idea.

[lilian-cho.livejournal.com]

*g* Yeah. Sam's so nice. Suggest him to open a discussion cafe in RL *LOL* Something called "Cafe Conversations"...

>>>>>Thanks for your explanation on family relations in China, BTW, that was really interesting and detailed. I had no idea.

You're welcome. Considering how vague the rest of the Chinese language is (no male or female difference for I, you, he/she), it just never cease to amaze me how specific titles for relatives are.

The first time I came to the U.S., I have to keep on reminding myself that when they say "cousin," they can be talking about their aunt, their uncle, their aunt/uncle's child, their cousin's child, etc. For Chinese people, even if my grandmother's youngest son is younger than me, I still have to honor his superior birth position and call him "Uncle." (My youngest uncle is only two years older than my oldest brother).

I guess all Europeans label all their relatives "Cousin" or something similar? What do the French call their relatives?

[la-rainette.livejournal.com]

Now, I wouldn't know about Europeans outside Germany and France, but we are indeed prompt to declare everyone "a cousin", even if we do sometimes give an indication of closeness (petit cousin, little cousin, means the child of a parent's direct cousin).

However, I would not refer to an uncle as a cousin, even if he is indeed younger than me. Uncle is uncle. Aunt is aunt. And whatever doesn't fall in the direct ascendants/descendants/siblings category is fair "cousin" game :D. Cousin éloigné is anyone you can vaguely claim as a relation.

[terrylj.livejournal.com]

Seems like I am always spamming Sam's journal. *sigh* I don't mean to, but he brings up the most interesting stuff, and you meet the most fascinating people over there.

Is it the enjoyment of others' misfortune in a "hahaha, look at that stupid person!" way, or in the "Oh, my, I'm so glad that's not ME" way, or in the way where you think, "Gosh, that's absolutely horrible. I can write a short story/novel/LJ entry about that, go me!"

[la-rainette.livejournal.com]

1st option, alas.

Yes, I am also spamming Sam's journal often, and he's OK with that most of the time, actually he enjoys seeing lively conversations around, I believe (I once compared his LJ to a comfortable café where people like to come and sit on comfortable pillows and chat together), but that thread was, uh, getting out of hand. *sheepish grin*

[terrylj.livejournal.com]

OK, well, are there words (in any language!) for the third option, and also for a vengeful feeling of "That absolute b@st@rd deserved every bit of it, so there!" 'Cause I could really work those two words into my conversation quite a bit.

It's Sam's own fault for being nearly named after a huge coffee chain. You see "Starbuck", you come in, sit down, grab a book and chitchat.

huge coffee chain

[lilian-cho.livejournal.com]

*confused* There's a huge coffee chain named Sam? I only know of Starbucks and Tully's. where I live, there's at least one coffeehouse in every single downtown intersection. Everyone's a caffeine addict.

I just realized that the subtitle of Sam's journal is Sam's Extraordinarily Public Journal *LOL*

Re: huge coffee chain

[la-rainette.livejournal.com]

*laughs* no, there isn't. But Sam is Sam Starbuck. ;)

Re: huge coffee chain

[lilian-cho.livejournal.com]

*shocked* That's his real name? Well that explains the cafe thing then.

English surnames just never cease to amaze me: Wood. Biggerstaff. Weasley. Pucey. Finch-Fletchly (it's a real surname! I thought Rowling made it up!)

Radcliffe...sounds romantic. Hathaway too.

Sam just wrote a 19th century style HP mystery. Go read it! :-)